True Crime Conversations

00:02 It's 2018 in Devon, England, and Zoe Watts' family thinks she's mourning the end of her 16-year marriage because of an affair. 00:11 That's what she told them a few months ago. Ever since, she's been struggling to function. Nervous breakdowns, panic attacks, unable to sleep or eat. 00:22 She can feel it starting to impact her four children. 00:26 So she sits her sister down and it all comes tumbling out. 00:30 Her husband didn't just splinter their life with the admission of infidelity. 00:35 He told her he's been drugging her with their son's sleeping medication and having sex with her unconscious body. 00:44 For Zoe, the last few months have felt like white noise. 00:49 With no memories of the abuse, she's struggling to wrap her head around the years of rape she's endured at the hands of someone she loves. 00:58 But her sister has no doubt this is a crime. 01:03 Once their mum is told, she doesn't hesitate. They immediately call police. 01:17 I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 01:27 And just a warning, this episode contains distressing descriptions of drug-induced assault. 01:33 In 2024, we learnt the name Giselle Pellico and the crime of drug-induced rape was thrust into the international spotlight. 01:43 The Pelico case was particularly harrowing, as Giselle's husband hadn't just drugged and raped her himself, he'd invited 50 other men into their home to do so too. 01:55 The case shocked the world, but for Zoe Watts, this crime wasn't new. 02:02 She'd been to trial two years prior, with her husband sentenced to 11 years in prison for doing the same thing to her. 02:12 When her case was going through the courts, she had no other examples to pull from because this crime has laid in the shadows for decades. 02:21 Giselle's bravery inspired Zoe's and in 2026, she shared her story publicly with CNN for the first time as part of their investigation unveiling the online rape academy and the true extent of this horrific offending. 02:38 We spoke to the journalist behind that investigation in a previous episode, which we'll link in our show notes. That report revealed group chats started through porn websites in which thousands of men swap tips and tricks for drugging and raping their partners. 02:56 Every time one of these websites is shut down, another pops up in its place. 03:02 Zoe has now joined the fight to take these men down, starting a campaign to build awareness, community, education, and most importantly, change laws that allow this crime to fester. 03:15 This is her story. 03:22 Zoe, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. I wanted to start by saying I'm so sorry this happened to you and I'm also so sorry about all of the abuse and criticism and victim shaming you have received after telling your story, which is something I never thought that I would say. I'm in shock that that's even happened to you. 03:44 Yeah, I was thinking about that last night. Just... 03:51 You know, how is it that when you finally, you know, get the strength to speak about your experience, there's a whole fresh new lot of silencing. 04:01 I find that very difficult to, you know, I find it very difficult to process because you don't know where it's coming from. You know, the attack, you know where that source is once you've understood that that's where the initial violence happened. But the victim shaming, it comes out of nowhere. I've experienced it in some very strange places with and without the children. So it really does destabilise you once again. 04:28 Let's take listeners back to the start. When you met this man who is now your ex-husband, you were quite young, weren't you? 04:35 17, yes. 04:37 Do you remember what it felt like to meet him? Was it love at first sight? What was that early relationship like? 04:43 Yeah, I'd say it probably was love at first sight. 04:48 I look back now and I know that none of it was love. But I can only speak to what I was feeling at the time. And I was wholeheartedly swept off my feet by this man who seemed, you know, I always say, you know, for Tinder, you know, you're quite right. You know, he had, you know, good connections with his family, good friends, good education, good job. There wasn't anything that you kind of had to think, oh, well, You know, maybe if he just stopped gaming too much, he would be okay. 05:22 It just seemed perfect. And the age gap, because there was like a 10-year age gap between the two of you, that wasn't a concern? 05:29 Not at the time, no. 05:31 It's only been a concern realistically, I think, as society moved on. Because back then, you say back then, I feel old. Yeah. 05:39 Yeah. 05:43 then the age wasn't really an issue I you know became 18 um and by that point he was sort of 28 29 so sometimes there was an 11 year gap and um I don't think it was an issue but now in hindsight and I know I've mentioned this before my eldest son has said mum I just think you were groomed she said I think you were groomed at the time but I think I haven't already broken that down, but I know that if my daughters or my sons had walked in the door with somebody 10 to 11 years older, I'd be turning them around and marching them back. 06:19 Also, when you were 17, when I was 17, we didn't really know about grooming. How cool that your son knows what that is. 06:26 yeah yeah i'm proud i'm very proud proud of all my children um i'm proud of the way that they have have managed this situation but yeah i think it does speak to you know the changes that we can make um by speaking out um i describe drug facilitated rape as a silent crime and it's as silent as domestic violence was 20 to 30 years ago you know It's happening in a home near you, but people don't believe it. 06:53 Well, before it happened to you, had you heard about it? 06:56 No. 06:57 Just the, you know, I'd heard of spiking and me and my friends would all make sure that we would get back safe, you know, if we were out to lunch or having a drink or something, somebody's birthday. 07:10 And I'd heard of, you know, making sure you get home, don't walk on your own anywhere. That was about as much as my education stretched to growing up in school and colleges. 07:23 I was the same. I don't think I had properly heard about it until the Pelico case in 2024. That's when it kind of got catapulted across the world. But I think a lot of us have been living in the dark about this crime. 07:37 Yeah, I think society on the whole has. 07:41 But doing what I do now, I now realize that, you know, there's some people that are engaged in the campaign that are in their 70s that has experienced it. You've got to think they would have been born in the 50s, you know, 60s. And I think medication back then, it wasn't astringent. So you even had like fentanyl derivatives in cough syrup and things, didn't you back then? 08:03 So, you know, some women have come forward and said that that's what they encountered within their relationship. And obviously divorce was very much frowned upon around about that time too. 08:13 Yeah. 08:15 Let's get back to your relationship, family life. You had four children together. You know, raising kids is a lot, parenting alongside each other. You were with each other for, you know, nearly two decades. Yeah. What was that like? What was raising a family together like for you? 08:31 Well, it had its ups and downs. I mean, the ups was he maintained a level of social... 08:42 Adoration. So his outward projection of what he was like as a father and as a husband was fantastic. So there were times that it looked great and you would rely on those big gestures to think, OK, things are going back to normal now. It will be fine. 09:01 And I can just speak to the dynamic that he had arranged a blessing day. 09:07 So for a guy, and I don't want to make James a stereotype, but he went out of his way to arrange a blessing day. So he contacted the minister of the church in which he got married. Saved up about £500 in an envelope. Booked in a hair appointment for me. Arranged to look after the children with him and I think my mum while I went shopping. 09:33 And he arranged a meal in the hotel that we had our wedding reception. So I woke up one morning and he handed me the envelope. And he told me what was going to happen on Saturday. And he'd invited everybody. And I thought, wow, like this guy. 09:50 must really love me. So all of a sudden, 40 people are turning up for, you know, the renewing of our wedding vows. Well, it turned out that he was feeling guilty, that he was sleeping with my best friend at the time when I was pregnant. 10:04 So that... 10:06 lends to the double narrative that you don't quite feel safe, but there's something brilliant going on. 10:13 And you just want more of that. 10:16 But then there were times when it was very difficult. He was never not poorly. 10:21 He was always poorly. And that probably started about three weeks into the relationship. 10:25 And initially it was put down to the death of his dad that he wasn't coping and he was going to get help. 10:32 And I found very quickly that there was always something that he wasn't coping with. And this was the excuse of his poor behavior. So it was managing him and his illness as well as running a family. 10:47 When you say that led to bad behavior, Was it abusive? Were you living in a DV relationship? Did you realise that at the time? Oh, no, I didn't realise, no. 10:59 I remember the first time within three weeks he sort of grabbed hold of me and was like batting me down this alleyway. 11:07 And I still don't know why. And I remember reaching out to some family members on his side and reaching out to his friends saying, You know, I don't understand this. I was 17 and I hadn't come across that before. You know, I've got a good circle of friends. It's just nothing I'd ever encountered. You know, my upbringing wasn't anything similar. 11:31 And his family sort of suggested and friends suggested, did he drink Jack Daniels? 11:37 And I thought, well, yeah, he had Jack Daniels and Coke. And they said, well, yeah, that doesn't agree with him. He drinks Jack Daniels and Coke, you know, he really can't cope and gets aggressive. So as long as he avoids that, then he'll be okay. 11:50 And that level of excusing set the course of the relationship, that something would happen, there would always be an excuse. 11:57 So did that physical violence increase then over the years? 12:01 Yeah, yeah, it definitely did to whether it was outward threats. And I can just explain that, you know, the atmosphere in the room would change first. You know, I'm very atmosphere, atmospheric sensitive, really. I remember I was driving in a car one time, or he was driving actually, and I remember just feeling the atmosphere change. And I looked at him and I thought he's going to punch me in the face. And I remember when he pulled the car over and we got to some friend's house, I was really scared that they could see. 12:36 And then they asked what was going on. And I said from across the room, you were going to punch me in the face. It took everything in my body not to. 12:45 And so I could feel it with feeling. 12:49 And as time progressed, he would suffocate me in my sleep. 12:54 He stalked me. Yeah, I mean, all sorts, really, when I look back. But it was a mixture of an emotional abuse. Your emotions are being abused. There was a psychological aspect where I was constantly doubting my reality and who this person was. But of course, he loved me because we were making plans as a family, as well as the physical abuse. 13:17 and then the sexual. 13:18 Obviously, we're going to talk about the drug facilitated rape. But before that, before you became aware of that, was there any sexual violence that you were aware of when you were awake? 13:29 No, no, there wasn't any that I remember when I was awake. 13:35 And I think that... 13:37 That again makes this difficult because, I mean, I guess that would give me an answer, wouldn't it? The only thing I can say is that there were times from 2009 that I did wake up. 13:53 I would say as he'd finished. So whether the sedation had worn off or not, I'm not sure. 14:01 But he was very clever. He wasn't sitting there saying it didn't happen. I don't know what you're talking about, Zoe. You must be crazy. 14:11 What happened was one of the times that I woke up, this man was sort of sat on the end of the bed, you know, head in hands, broken, crying, saying, oh, I don't know what's just happened to me. I don't feel right. Something's not right. I'm so sorry. You know, what's happened? 14:31 And then I'd be thinking, well, what? 14:34 And then he went to the doctor. He started going to the doctor and saying, I have woken up to find myself having sex with her. I don't want to. Can you help me? 14:50 So it seemed like this poor man, this was just another phase of his mental illness that was being considered by the medical professionals. And therefore the abuse continued. 15:00 Were you planning to leave him or did you see a future with this man? 15:05 No, I think I stayed with him because it wasn't rape. Those words weren't even, I mean, his doctor was contacting a consultant at a hospital to see, you know, just what was going on. You know, so they were not at all concerned about my well-being. They weren't concerned about what was happening. It was as if he was going in with an ingrown toenail, really destabilizing. 15:35 So I just thought this was just something, you know, that I was, you know, we were experiencing together. You know, I was just on the receiving end of it almost, you know. 15:45 Um, it only got to, it got to about 2015, 2016 and things really got bad, um, with a mixed, well, it got bad all round really with the domestic violence, you know, the emotional, the psychological. And then I was thinking, I think I'm going to have to have a break. I couldn't, I couldn't cope with being his carer as well as being a mum and running a business. 16:14 So I think we had around about a six-week break and then he got well and then he got back together. 16:20 Before he made his confession of the much more sinister things he was doing, were there any symptoms that you now look back on in hindsight and think, oh, that was a sign that I wasn't aware of? 16:34 As in physical ones for me? Yeah. 16:37 Yeah. 16:38 Yeah, so I'd experienced for years thrush, and I never knew why. 16:46 Sometimes as a woman, you can track it down to a cycle, or you can track it back to a sexual experience, and you think, oh, okay, maybe I should have gone to the toilet afterwards or something. But I was struggling with that, and I was struggling with idiopathic, nonspecific urine infections. 17:02 And it was the police that had explained to me that they found, you know, those things in my medical records that, you know, can attest to times that I also contacted the GP. 17:13 There was a correlation and I wasn't really sure. 17:17 I also thought at one point in time, I thought I had a brain tumour because I was so... 17:22 I'd have bouts of just feeling sick and migraine-y. My body wasn't well. I can't explain it. And I thought... 17:32 I'm going to have, you know, I've got a brain tumor and I'm going to die. My migraines got so bad that I had an MRI, which didn't reveal anything, which is great. And then things just get put down to stress, you know, hormones. You're going through a lot right now. 17:49 So, yeah, I think I put down the nausea and the exhaustion and the migraines and the thrush and, you know, to just being run down. And I think the GPs did as well. 18:01 After the break, Zoe tells me about the day her ex-husband confessed what he'd been doing to her in her sleep. 18:10 Take me to 2018, which is when he made his confession. What did your life look like at that point? So you had all this stuff going on with the health. 18:18 How old were your kids? What kind of situation were you in, in life? 18:23 I'm just trying to think. 18:26 I think my eldest is probably about... 18:29 14, 15. And so my other one, my other son would have been about, um, 11, 12. And then my daughter would have been about nine, 10. And my other one would have been about five and six. 18:43 Um, so quite young, I think. Still in the midst of parenting. Yeah, I know. I know. But they, oh, they saved my life. But, um, I think at the time we were really heavily involved in a church and we were running courses. 19:05 So now Bear Grylls does the Alpha course, which is just an exploration of your relationship with God. So we were running that. We were running, ironically, J. John Just Ten, which is the Ten Commandments. So yeah. you know, thou shall not steal, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not commit murder. But within those educational packages, we broke down what adultery looks like and how it stems from lust. And we broke down, now shall not commit murder. And that stems from anger. And I'll always remember to this day, those two separate weeks that we ran out of the commandments, he refused to come and was really poorly and somebody else had to do it. 19:47 And I look back now and I think, yeah, well, you know. Guilty conscience gotcha. Absolutely did. 19:53 Didn't stop him though, did it? No. 19:57 but yeah so we were we were really involved in that we were involved in um you know there was like an outreach program that people were calm and we were getting food and stuff so you know again there was this um different persona of who this guy was you know on the face of it um but I think yeah we were attending church every Sunday doing things one to two evenings a week and And there seemed to be some fulfillment from that. We would always have a family day at the weekend with the children as well. 20:29 They had their various different clubs. 20:33 On a side note to that, he had decided to go into a fellowship program from around about 2015-16 when things had got out of hand. It was an anonymous fellowship program as somebody was trying to help Because they'd known this guy for 11 years and they knew that he was on a desperate quest to get well and to get better and to cope. So, you know, they suggested like if you've ever had a problem with drink or drugs or you've ever had a problem with sex, whatever it is, whatever the addiction is, you might find this place helpful. 21:10 So he joined this fellowship program. synonymous 12-step recovery and why that's so important was because within the church section some of these guys came so I was engaging with them regularly weekly and one of them was his sponsor so every day he would speak to his sponsor every week they would meet and they would run through the step work program I don't know if you're familiar with it 21:35 No. 21:36 But sort of step one is you have to admit you've got a problem. So if you're an alcoholic, you've got to admit that you're an addict. Step two is you've got to seek something outside of yourself. So one and two were done very easily. 21:49 Step three was something like you write a character defects list of all the things you struggle with. So that might be pride, self-indulgence or lust or whatever it is that's driving you to act out. You know, step four, you write a list of people that you've harmed. So it might have been, well, I was 15. I stole money from my aunt to go and get my alcohol. Then something like step five is you tell that person and you put it right should it cause some harm. 22:17 So step. 22:19 I remember when he went into the program, he used the program as well as religion as another excuse for poor behavior. So it would be, I've had a really bad day working my step work today. I really can't cope. 22:34 Or he would say, I've just spoken to my sponsor and it's not gone well. Or step four is really difficult. Have you ever tried to look at all the things that you've done wrong? 22:44 So he used, you know, mental health, the step work and religion as tools to systematically abuse me. 22:52 So between 2015 to 2018, he must have gone through his step work because you repeat them. You go through one to 12 and you repeat them or one to four, you act out and then you go back to step one. So it's a constant cycle. 23:08 At this point in 2018, we had realized when he gave me the confession that this group of men in the fellowship knew what he was doing. 23:19 So they had known since 2015, 16, of the various different types of abuse that I was encountering. And I was standing up there on a Sunday or on a Wednesday night, talking them through. And there was this guy chatting away, how narcissistic, about the love of God and how you should treat people. And in the audience, there's a group of guys thinking, well, he's going to go home and rape her tonight and drug her up. I just, I can't. get my head around that at all. 23:51 And that's why the fact that it's not just your husband, it's all these other men that were complicit. 23:56 Yeah. And they knew for years and they also met the children. So, you know, we'd exchange phone numbers. There was an outside relationship. I wasn't, I'm not, it's not to say that if I was Joe blocks down the street, they shouldn't have helped, but there was a relationship with these people where we had developed a kinship, a friendship, a supportive network. 24:16 So when 2018 occurred, as time progressed, I started to realise the extent of what had happened to me, but it took me time. 24:30 I'm flabbergasted that all these men knew before you. 24:38 So he admitted to you what he'd been doing on a random Sunday. Do you think it was this, these 10 steps, like a guilty conscience? Why did he eventually come clean? 24:49 I don't think it was. I think, I mean, it would be easy, right? Oh gosh, he feels so bad. He's told me a guilty conscience. But if that was the case and he was really genuine in his confession and changing his behaviour 180 degrees, you know, um, He wouldn't have done what he did for the remaining four years and he would have pled guilty. 25:13 There was no remorse. No. What I think was as this man had got me in such a vulnerable, emotionally and physically, in a vulnerable state, that when you're in that dynamic of a domestic or some sort of an abusive relationship, you know, the person that's abusing you, because you're so unaware that that's what's happening, you end up turning to them for comfort. I personally believe that these sorts of people are very inadequate individuals. 25:48 They can't sustain and fulfill their needs through, you know, loving themselves and receiving genuine love from other people. 25:57 that they seek to fill the void of inadequacy through power. 26:02 And I believe that he'd already got me in a position where I knew I was being suffocated and the GPs knew that I was being suffocated and that wasn't an issue. 26:15 They knew that he tried to drive me into a lifeboat station wall at 60 miles an hour and they just told me to take away his keys. 26:22 What? Yeah, I know, yeah. 26:26 So I think that he was deriving more and more satisfaction and power from me, almost being aware. It got to the point that I was sat in a room with a counsellor saying, because it was like he's parading me around. He said, I said, I don't understand what's happened. He's admitted to having an affair. He's admitted to drugging me. Well, I didn't say drugging me. I said, put in my son's sleeping medication in my drink to sedate me, to have sex with me, to tie me down, take photographs of me. 27:00 And she just shushed me and said, can you see him? And he's like this. 27:07 he's not he's not coping so when you see him looking like this you need to stop talking you need to give him time and space so I think it was almost like I mean I knew everything and he was still getting away with it and the abuse was still continuing I think the physical abuse was continuing for sure you know the suffocations and and we derived from the suffocations had then gone on to the outward strangling Um, so I think that he was getting that fix that, you know, they had to run it up in the ante and I think my death would have been next. 27:49 So I guess you've answered my question in that he admits it, confesses, and you guys kind of try and stay together for a period and try and kind of work through what he'd just told you? 27:59 Yeah. My family knew about the affair and friends knew about the affair. 28:06 He had admitted to struggling with sex to certain members of the congregation and to certain people outwardly in front of me and said, look, I'm really struggling with this. I'm struggling with online content. And can you do anything that can help me? It's quite different because a lot of the time you get an abuser that shies away from the abuse, but he just took enough, not responsibility, but on the outward image of him, he was saying, hey, look, I'm human. 28:39 I've got faults. I need help. Will you help me? So from the outside, people are like, God, this man. I mean, he's really trying. 28:49 Let's pray for you. 28:51 Let's meet tonight and we'll do some more step work. Go out, relax. It's been a hard week. Yeah, you don't often get that with an abuser, but that is how... 29:01 confident he had become it feels like a dystopia that people thought that this was acceptable he admitted to restraining you photographing and videoing you as well as the rape did he tell you what he was doing with those videos and photos I don't know I don't know and I really and again I didn't pick up on this till a couple of weeks ago I've got some clippings from the court 29:31 And I've got the criminal journal reporter that was in during the sessions. And it's even printed that he was standing in the dock saying, oh, I took arty photographs of her. I took arty videos of her. 29:47 Why wasn't he charged? 29:49 He's standing in the ground court admitting to doing it, but was never questioned on it and was never charged with it. 29:56 It's crazy. And I've only just realised that now. So he wasn't charged for that portion of it, for the photography and the videoing? No. Surely that's a crime as well. 30:07 Well, it is. Yeah. It is. But his excuse was she wanted me to. When he told me, he said, I've taken the videos and images of you, but it's for your benefit, Zoe. you don't want me looking online at other women. I've already had an affair. 30:24 So if I'm looking at the content that I'm making of you, then if I could be so crude, he said, well, I'm not masturbating to anybody else. You don't want me to do that, do you? 30:34 So it was for my benefit, he said. 30:36 Wow, the manipulation. Well, CNN's investigation this year revealed that men, thousands of men, using porn sites and then entering chat groups and basically swapping tips on doing this very thing, drug facilitated rape. Do you think he might have, do we have any proof that he was in these groups, that he was sharing these photos of you there or at least talking to these men there? 31:02 Oh, yeah. So when he'd admitted to certain people that he was struggling with looking at porn sites and adult material, We went up to his work and me and another guy went through the computers and put loads of blocks on to make sure it was safe at work and at home. 31:26 The police only ever took his phone. 31:29 I asked them to take his computers, but they didn't think it was necessary. But on that, we found... 31:36 loads of different profiles on websites that I just couldn't even tell you. I just knew that they were adult content. It's not something at the time that I wanted to be. I mean, I wasn't aware that I needed to go down the rabbit hole. 31:49 Um, But it's not something that I wanted to be doing. But I thought, well, I don't want this stuff on our work computers. And it was before the police that the security was put on them. 32:05 And you can get like a Wi-Fi that blocks certain things. But once the police were involved, I said to them, do you want to take the computers? Because he would be going up to work at night and then coming home saying that he was working late. And they said no. 32:20 Zoe, when you go on mainstream porn websites, it feels like most of the content on there is quite violent. And then you've got this extra sub kind of area that is this sleep content that's extra sinister. How do we change this? How do we help our young boys to not be sucked into these horrible whirlpools? 32:46 Yeah, I think it's really disturbing. 32:48 I remember being on a bus within the last six months and hearing sort of 13, 14 year old boys talking about CNC porn. 32:57 And I was like, my worry is that these young lads are going online on these, you know, sites online. 33:08 And you don't click far, you click on it and there is something disgusting, as in, you know, a daddy wakes daughter or, you know, strangle to the point of eyes rolling. 33:21 And I think that I'm really worried that we are desensitizing our children and that these girls think it's acceptable to be treated that way. and that boys think it's acceptable to treat a young girl that way. And I think if you've got 13, 14-year-olds that are being shown by adults that this is something that is thrilling and acceptable and it's one click away, then it's not a far stretch to think how they end up going down the wrong rabbit hole. 33:54 Obviously, it's different to actually acting it out. But I mean, past proves future in that respect. They are in their hundreds of thousands. 34:05 So I am really concerned and think there needs to be a re-education of what is and isn't acceptable. And again, tackling the porn industry than making the content to begin with did he tell you how long he'd been doing this to you no but i know it started in easily 2009 possibly the end of 2008 because that's when i first went to the doctor to say um i woke up to find him you know am i okay you know um I think I was checking if I need a contraception or... 34:43 You know, so I know that it would have happened around about 2008, 2009 was the start of it. 34:49 So forgive my very bad math, but you would have had been pregnant or had young, like just postpartum in some of these rapes? 34:58 Yeah. So I know for, I know my last child, I had mastitis. 35:09 Are you familiar with what that is? Yeah. Well, yeah. Painful, right? And stitches. And I was infected like top and bottom. 35:18 And you walk around all day padded up. 35:21 And so at nighttime, I went to bed on a towel. We're not wearing anything on to just air off and try and let the infections heal when I was on antibiotics. 35:31 And this was four weeks after birth. And then I woke up. My first sexual encounter was with him. They're raping me. And I had to go back to the GP to say, I'm breastfeeding. I'm not on any contraception. You need to go to your GP. This has happened again. You need to tell your GP that what he's doing isn't working. You need more treatment. And again, he was just sat on the bed saying, I just, I don't know what happened. 35:58 I mean, are you all right? What's going on? At the time, you know, again, it was, I was looking after him. 36:05 It was very strange. 36:07 that's also incredibly dangerous to even be having sex four weeks postpartum. It's just so wrong on so many levels when you unpack it. I want to talk about, because this was like the big revelation, you obviously knew something was happening, but in the confession he said, I've been crushing our son's sleep medication. So he admitted that he'd been drugging you 36:32 Yeah. Was it a prescription medication? 36:35 Does this mean your son wasn't getting medication? What was happening there? 36:38 Yeah, exactly that, yeah. And there were times that we'd go to the GP to increase the medication because it wasn't working. 36:46 And also at the time, due to what was happening in my life and my migraines getting worse, I was on medication as well, so I was having various different drugs to try and help with my medication that also had a sedative effect. So, I mean, one of the drugs I remember was amitriptyline. 37:03 and that can be used as an antidepressant at a relatively low dose. But at the high dose, it can be used to treat pain, say migraines, it's a nerve blocker, and can also be used to treat symptoms like urticaria. 37:18 And then those dosages are sort of 50 to 60 milligrams up, while I was on like 150 milligrams. 37:25 So there were all sorts of different migraine medications that I would be taking as a preemptive um to to you know stop a preventative if you like that i was taking nightly on top so i wonder if he um you know just almost increased my dose of sedative by using the sleeping medication but what sort of a father it's not a father I was going to say, what sort of a father does that? 37:53 That is not what a father does, so I don't know. Because your son is prescribed sleeping medication for a reason and he's taking that away from a child. Yes. The routine that you had of an evening was a nightly tea, right? That's what he used to do for you, you know, a kind act. Yes. 38:15 When you found out that he'd been... 38:19 using that kind of nice evening routine to basically facilitate this assault on you what was that like because I can imagine that's like another extra level of betrayal when you find out that you know the kindness that he was showing was actually not kind yeah I haven't really thought about that that's a really good question as I said every day is a school day for me I'm learning something new about what happened to me as well I think um 38:49 Yeah, the usual routine was that he would be making me a cup of tea and I'd be running around, you know, sorting the house out, waiting for the next morning, you know, lunches and whatnot. You know, I think as relationships progress, you almost form roles of who does what. I can't figure out how it got to that point of him making my tea and looking down and thinking, I know what I'm going to do. I know what I'm going to do tomorrow night. I don't know how it started. 39:17 I mean, yeah, it is a – I mean, the whole thing is a violation of trust, isn't it? 39:23 And you trust your intimate partner probably more so than anybody, you know, definitely equal or even more so than your parents because you are now a team. You share your every thought with this person. But, yeah, that is just – I can't even imagine it. My brain can't go there. 39:42 Do you think in this process – Your brain has protected you a lot. Can you just not think about certain things because it's too hard? 39:49 Yeah. So once it had happened, once the police were involved, because he broke in that night as well, and that was just a horrific evening, he was arrested. Within about four days, I ended up hospitalised with a kidney stone. 40:11 I think I was in hospital for about six days. 40:14 Needed an operation. It wasn't passing. 40:18 And then I remember coming home and laying on the sofa just thinking, I didn't want to die. I didn't want to, but I also didn't want to carry on. There were no active thoughts of suicide, but I just, my life was gone. My life was gone. I didn't know what was real in my past. My whole future had been taken away from me, been taken away from us as a family. 40:44 And I was slowly breaking down with the police that they were saying that you are being raped. You have been being raped for all these years. 40:52 And I remember my mum saying, right, this is going to make you or break you. My mum's fantastic. I loved her pieces. And it was a really, I mean... 41:03 It was a really strong chat. She said, look, you are all your kids have got now. So this will make you. And she was right. And I thought, oh, my God, yeah, like my future is gone. Well, what about theirs? I'm not going to let, you know, this affect them any more than what it has to. Obviously, they had to adjust to him not being there. And they found out very quickly what he had done. But I threw myself into... 41:33 making memories and rebuilding our new family unit. 41:38 So there was a level of disassociation that I just, this thing, it was over here. I can reel off the list of things that this man has done to me as if it's a newspaper article or if that's somebody else. 41:51 I struggle to engage and connect with my emotions. 41:57 And I'm working through that now with a neuropsychotherapist who is absolutely fantastic. but I do not allow myself as a protective mechanism to get emotionally connected to it. So I'm hoping in time because that also is, I was diagnosed with a functioning neurological disorder a few years ago because I lost the ability to talk properly and I had left-hand side weakness and I was sort of almost like jerking. 42:28 I was having involuntary body movements. And they said it was a neurological disorder brought on by trauma. So I'm having to work through what has happened to me very slowly in a secure environment, so not to exasperate my symptoms. I had about a year and a half's worth of speech and language therapy to get to where I am today. 42:50 Zoe, you are the third victim survivor who has told me about having a chronic autoimmune condition after... 42:59 something they've suffered. It is such a mind-blowing thing that I think is so understudied. The fact that your body reacts like that, surely we need people looking into this. My goodness. 43:16 Yeah, I think you're right. I've come across a few survivors that have had that. But I mean, when I was in the hospital, they were saying to me, look, I didn't think it was trauma but the hospital was saying we know that women that have experienced or people that have experienced trauma can go on to develop a neurological condition called functional neurological disorder. 43:39 So I'm hoping that as time is progressing and people are becoming more vocal that they are correlating the two and doing the necessary work but you know, let's stop people experiencing trauma. How was your experience with the police? Were you believed? Were they supportive? They were. The police were brilliant. 43:59 You know, I look back and I think, were there things that they could have done differently, as in collecting the computers? Would that have opened up a whole new thing? But I think some of that also is down to the CPS. I think they work very separately, although you think that they work very together. They're not. You know, the police are investigating all day long, can have all the evidence that you need, which my officer did. And he was fantastic. And then so they had to apply to the courts for the medical records. 44:29 And I gave my medical records and my son's medical records over, you know, without a hitch. whereas he refused because he knew that all of his confessions were in there. So they then had to go to court to force the medical records. 44:44 And then when the CPS had all that information, after 18 months of the investigation, they contacted me and said, we're not going to prosecute. And my officer, who was fantastic, came out to the house. He could have just peed it over in an email. Well, they just sent me an email anyway. But he was so... 45:04 engaged in this and was so aware of what this man, who he really was and what this man had done. I can't fault that. And my Idva and Isva, my Isva was absolutely fantastic. And I went to the CPS and I had to champion myself through the victim liaison and be my own advocate. I remember writing to them, you know, every couple of days, you know, he has confessed in his medical records. What do you need? My body? You know, do you need a dead body? 45:35 Are you actually going to do something? And then it took over a year for them to say, yeah, okay, we've made a mistake. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. We will prosecute him. 45:45 So it could be that the CPS... 45:48 Because they didn't charge him. There's a separate offense. If you have sex, if you rape somebody in front of a minor, and it doesn't matter what age the minor is, but they didn't charge him with the sexual assault of when I woke up and my daughter was in the Moses basket. They didn't charge for the online content. They didn't charge for any of the domestic violence. But for me, I want that. I want that charge for that. And I want that charge for that. And I want that recognition and that punishment for him. 46:22 But the police were good. But I think the CPS are struggling. 46:27 Up next, Zoe recounts what the court process was like and the four-year wait between charges and the trial. 46:36 Well, he was only charged with four charges in the end. You waited four years to go to trial. 46:43 What was that experience like for you? Because he could have saved you a lot of pain, but he pled not guilty. 46:50 Yes, and I'll never forget that. He, court for me was awful. 46:58 I think there's a separate element to a drug facilitative rape with an intimate partner that You have, you know, I had 18 years worth of my sex life under scrutiny. 47:10 I remember being asked, did I ever use handcuffs? And I was like, yeah, but I was 17. It's like, well, how can we prove that you weren't up for it now then? That that's, you know, so it's, it's very degrading. It was almost, if I use handcuffs when I was 17, I was asking for it when I was 25. I mean, it's like you were asleep. Yeah. Yeah, but I guess what they're saying is the courts can use that as a valid defense, right? It's crazy, absolutely crazy to have that line of questioning even allowed, you know, because for me, consent is renewed with every new intimate transaction. 47:50 It's not, well, I did something when I was 17, so I was asking for it 10 years later. 47:56 We're saying as a judicial system that we don't have to give consent with each sexual interaction because that's certainly how it felt. 48:04 You know, never mind the fact that I was sedated. 48:09 But I think that he became undone during the court proceedings and he annoyed the judge and the barristers. I almost feel like his veil has slipped away. 48:24 um he it had taken years to get me in that position to make me as vulnerable as I was to make me as accepting of my environment and I think he thought he could do that to 12 of his peers a judge and some barristers in the space of five six days and he couldn't do it he lost yeah but he blamed me That was allowed to be his defence. She was asking for it. 48:53 She wanted me to. Well, he got 11 years. 48:56 Was that justice for you? Was that a surprise for you? It was a surprise. 49:00 I don't know if it was justice because my coping mechanism was that I had assigned myself to the fact that he was going to be let off and therefore, as a mum, I had to action various things to make sure me and the children were safe. 49:17 So I was quite proactive in that regard, right? He's stalking us. We need a non-monestation order. 49:23 If this man's walking around, what are we going to do to protect ourselves? And then when they said that they were going to charge him in my mind, I thought, well, he's going to be let off. And then I thought, okay, but at least he's gone through this. 49:34 At least he's gone through this and there'll be a court record of everything that he says. So I can walk away just knowing that. 49:41 And then when he got found guilty, I thought 18 months community sentence, that's what he's going to get away with as a coping mechanism, just to self-preserve, you know, that I could still function afterwards. And then they said, no, it'll be between nine and 14 years. 49:58 um there was bad representation in regards to the barrister of his character so his barrister said how wonderful it was and he was actually for the four years enabled by this group of men working in a recovery center for vulnerable men and women as a living carer and he was caring for them um and i just thought okay Here we go again. They are facilitating this man working with vulnerable women who are, you know, trying to step out of addiction, which is incredibly difficult. 50:36 And they are allowing him to do so. So, you know, his barrister was saying, what a wonderful guy he was. 50:42 And then they also said that he was squeaky clean for four years. 50:47 And I tried to speak and say, that's not true. We've had to get a non-monestation order. He has stalked us, harassed us, gone to the children's school, you know, been outside the house for four years. And I wasn't allowed my voice in court. They wouldn't let me say that. So he got 11 out of the maximum 14 years. 51:07 And then I remember the judge saying, we will never know how many times you've raped her. 51:14 Here's your 11 years. But I thought, well, you know, 2008 to 2018 is 10 years. Therefore, he's been given one year for raping me once every year. where he'd probably been at hundreds and hundreds. So in that regard, I don't think there's justice. And I think that the sentencing is not reflective on a drug-facilitated rape. So another woman had experienced rape with a one-time rape, which is horrendous, by the way. 51:46 The guy should never be let out. But in the scale of sentencing, he got 18 years. So I think, well, if you've raped somebody 150 times, 500 times, Your sentences should reflect that, but it doesn't. It's strange. 52:00 Yeah, well, when you put it like that, it's quite glaring. When Giselle Pellico's story broke in 2024, and this is like two years after all your proceedings have ended, what was that like for you, seeing something that was quite familiar to you play out on an international stage and suddenly everyone's talking about drug-induced rape? 52:17 I mean, firstly, Giselle Pellico, incredible for coming forward and waving her anonymity. She's absolutely right to do so. 52:26 But I think it's slightly different. And I'm definitely feeling that with a lot of the women that come through the campaign, because I think the world stopped for Giselle, and rightly so, because it wasn't just her husband. It was 50 other men. And I think that's very different from women that have had it with just their husband. And I'm not saying just, I'm saying just their husband. Yes. 52:49 Because they're feeling like... 52:52 It's not bad enough that maybe they could have done something different. Maybe they shouldn't have sent that joke five years ago or my case, well, I went to bed naked. So maybe it was my fault. It's almost like there's what I've experienced is, well, you've already had sex with him. 53:09 You should have been more kinky within your relationship and you might not have done it. Or maybe you were too kinky and let him on. You should have put out more. 53:19 So I think society has a base level of an expectation. And I think even some women are like, oh, God, I've sorted them out. I've sorted them out for the month. He's had it now. I don't need to do it again. It's almost like it could be a duty, a tool. 53:34 And so I think that there was a basic level of mild acceptance of you know, that the man's needs need to be met. So I think women are really struggling to come forward and say, no, my husband raped me. I think with Giselle Pellico, it was a darn sight easier to get on board with that narrative because how are you going to explain 50 men that this poor woman has never met? 53:59 And I'm trying to create a space for women to say, no, just your husband, one woman, one time is one too many. That's it. 54:09 Is that why you decided to share your story? Because you only shared recently, just this year, you waived your right to anonymity, you shared for the first time with CNN with your face and your name to your story. Is that why? Because you wanted other women to see an example? 54:26 Yes. 54:29 I tried it one way. I tried it being anonymous and I spoke with the family about it as well. 54:37 It wasn't a decision I took lightly. 54:40 And then my kids said, well, mum, if something had happened to, you know, your eldest daughter, would you be telling her to run away and hide? No, you wouldn't. You'd be standing next to her saying it's not her fault and this person needs to go to prison. 54:53 And, you know, when my children are saying that to me, I think, oh, yeah, you are right. 54:57 And I think with Giselle Pellico, there had been more of an acceptance for somebody that has my story to come forward. 55:07 and create a space for women where it was just their husband. 55:11 Firstly, tell me about Amanda because she's your partner in crime as you kind of fight this epidemic, it seems to be, of drug facilitated rape. You met Amanda through kind of that CNN story. She's also a victim. 55:26 Yeah, she is. 55:28 We wanted to exchange numbers, so Saskia from CNN had facilitated that for us, bless her. 55:36 And we started off with, you know, the odd message. 55:42 You know, you've got nothing in common, no common ground with this person except a traumatic experience. 55:49 And we were learning as time went on how close our experiences were. 55:55 And so it was after the campaign, after the airing, of the CNN interview that we touched base a bit more. We touched base for the first sort of, I think we recorded and then there was a two to three month gap. We touched base for the first month. Then it went quiet for around about a month, the order you okay message. And then it aired. 56:22 And then I was, bless honestly Saskia I was on at her all the time like you know it's like I woke up it was like no I'm doing something about this but what can I do about it is my voice going to be enough I think Amanda was doing the same um and then I set up end eye check I was on my driveway and I was so frustrated. I have one of these moments where I thought I'm doing it. I'm doing it now. I was already logging my story online and Saskia would put me in touch with other people to share it with, to make a change sort of professionally speaking. 57:00 But then I... 57:02 developed the end eye check came up with it you know did it all and then after a couple of weeks of doing this and engaging with um saskia saskia said ask amanda see if amanda wants to do this with you um and at first she went away to think about it and do you know that's what's great because um having another voice it lends to making sure we're um not catering, but reaching a wide net of women that people can relate to. 57:35 So for me, I named it End Eye Check because I thought we are going to end the eye check. 57:41 Tell my listeners what an end eye check means for those that don't know. 57:46 So the eye check is the act that is performed by this degenerate, when they have sedated the woman, they lift up the eyelid and check to see whether she is sedated and quite often they record it. So that these men on these online platforms were doing hashtag eye check and then they were performing the rake. 58:08 And that, again, I learned something in that moment. I thought, oh, my God, what did he do to make sure I was sedated? Like, what did he do? Did he poke me in the ribs? Did he do the eye check? So I thought, no, I'm not having this. Every time these men are going to type in eye check, end eye check is going to come up. And I was designing a website and doing everything just in my bedroom. 58:28 And that's when after a good couple of weeks, I contacted Amanda. And then Amanda said, I'm not sure if I can join because the eye check, the word eye check for me is really triggering. And I thought, God, yeah, you're right. It probably is. And that's what I mean. We're meeting survivors on so many different levels. It's good to have that person. So she joined the campaign and she's doing fantastic. But we're learning. 58:58 through talking that we've had those same crazy thoughts or that I'll say, oh, this happened to me. And she said, oh, my God, I didn't realize that happened to you too. Did that happen to you? And that's a survivor network that we're building up of women that have experienced drug facilitated rape where we can find common ground. 59:18 Because I can't look back on, like Giselle Pelleke can, at a wonderful marriage. Yeah. I just look back and lies. It's just lies for me. 59:27 And therefore, we'll meet women that can look back at their wonderful marriage and have that memory. And that's great. And then I'll be able to relate to the women that look back and think, my God, I've been lied to. This isn't love. 59:39 It's good to have someone. So what are the goals? What are you trying to do with the End Check campaign? 59:45 With the End I Check campaign, there's lots of things. 59:49 One of them is... 59:51 Oh, firstly, we're trying to track statistics for drug facilitated rape. So if you go into your doctor and you record a rape or you go to the police and you record rape, it gets put as rape or maybe familial rape. So it would be classed in the same bracket as if you were sexually assaulted by your father or your uncle or your brother. 60:12 I am requesting that all agencies record drug facilitated rape as a separate statistic. So let's say I get this pushed through because this is my new thing. Let's say I get this pushed through to 2027. We are going to start collecting data of women that have recorded that they experienced drug facilitated rape. so in five years time we can look at the growth right now we can't look at the growth because no one there's no source of statistics so the campaign is building a statistic database and now working with agencies that are saying they are happening they're going to happily start recording this as a separate violation want to implement cracking down on online platforms um and have you know uh Well, I believe that sleep content and CNC content, strangulation content, it just should be banned. 61:05 It should be banned from being made. It should be banned from being uploaded. Some wally tries to upload sleep content, their IP address, even if it's blocked or whatever it is, gets sent straight to the police rather than the victims having to try and find themselves years later. 61:22 That's something. I'm looking at an education program for women so that we know that this is something that we can encounter. A bit like Ask Angela on the back of a toilet door, you know, drug facilitated rape is something that I never even knew that I need to consider as a possibility. 61:40 and also the education program reaching mandatory reporters. So when we have women coming in with various different symptoms, or in my case, actually saying this is what has happened, they put the adequate safeguarding and mandatory reporting in because currently that isn't being done. 61:56 And then to reach out to men, like how are they going down this rabbit hole? I mean, I don't like calling them men because these people aren't men. That is not what a man is. They are a degenerate. But how do we get from that to this? 62:08 There's quite a few things that I'm plugging away out with the campaign at the moment, but it's good. And building the network. So far in a number of months, there is 55 different countries worth of engagement and 22 separate countries of survivors. 62:28 So this is why I say, you know, it's like the clip of the movie is happening in a town near you. It literally is. 62:35 And I think as a society, we have to wake up. We don't want to. I know it sounds a cliche. We've got to wake up. We have to open our eyes that this is something that is happening. We check how our friends get home, but we don't check how our friends slept that night. And the sad thing is, is that she probably doesn't know either. 62:56 So when I think, I don't know if right now I could list 22 countries off the top of my head, just random. There is that many, 22 different countries of survivors. So I'm asking them to continue to reach out. We're working diligently for them, but that sets the tone of how prevalent this crime is. 63:16 And I think we're just scratching the iceberg. 63:19 Have you heard from many from Australia? 63:21 Yeah. The End Eye Check campaign is opening up in Australia soon. 63:27 And fortunately or unfortunately, so Canada, Australia, Mexico and America, I think Canada is already pretty much up and running, but the prevalence in Australia is very high. Yeah, well, that's devastating. 63:43 It is. But, you know, I think while we keep thinking this is a crime that happens to somebody else, We're not going to fix it while we keep thinking that this crime discriminates. It doesn't discriminate in both ways. It doesn't discriminate by the perpetrator. We think that somebody like this, you know, is somebody that, you know, is not of good standing. This crime by the perpetrator, we've got perpetrators that are highly educated, various different social networks, various different ages, various different ethnicities. 64:15 It does not discriminate. 64:17 So we're not looking for it. And it certainly doesn't discriminate by the victim. If you think that you've got a good job and live in a good area, it's not going to happen to you, you're wrong. It does not discriminate. So we have got victims of different ages, different ethnicities, different parts of the world, different social standards. I think we just have to accept that while there is a body and there is a nighttime, this is a possibility. And that is it. 64:42 At least we're actually talking about it nowadays. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I can feel your passion is creating this community of incredible survivors. 64:54 Is it helping you? Is it healing you? Is it giving you people to bounce off? 64:59 I mean, it's a double-edged sword. Every new woman that I speak with is just, it's heartbreaking. 65:05 Um, But then on the plus side, I get up every day and I think if I can just help one more, if I can just help one more. There are women that have stripped their social media page and dedicated it to End Eye Check. They are now End Eye Check Scotland, End Eye Check Wales. I think, wow, like that is brilliant. 65:25 And I'm pleased to be able to help facilitate a platform for these women to heal. There is a level of healing, but I think first comes understanding and I'm still understanding what happened to me daily. 65:42 I did an interview yesterday and I suddenly realized something else about myself and my experience that I either haven't processed or I haven't allowed myself to process. So I think if other women anonymously or otherwise, there's no pressure to weigh their anonymity, have a space to be able to do that where they're judgment free, then that's great. 66:06 Campaigning aside, what does the future look like for you and your family? Do you see love in the future, happiness in the future? What are you looking forward to? 66:19 I think I don't rule anything out. I'm not going to let this person make me feel bitter and rob me of my future. He robbed me of my perception of the past. So I'm of the mindset of grabbing joy whenever I can. 66:36 My dad was an incredible, incredible man. And we recently lost him. In fact, he passed away four days after CNN aired, which is just awful. 66:49 But I think that he was an example, a shining example of what a man is. 66:58 And I know that there are men out there that are like that. 67:03 And we need them, right? We need them to stand up, come alongside the campaign, change the narrative, educate their children. You know, we need that. So I don't think that me sitting here thinking all men are like it. I'm never, you know, doing anything. It's going to help me because he's keeping me safe. 67:21 in prison still he's controlling me from prison if I stop finding joy if I stop making memories so my coping mechanism of healing is to go out and live my life and make memories with my family that is that's the biggest thing that has got me through so I find joy whether it's in a cup of coffee in the garden or a walk with my mum whatever it is 67:46 I think that's one thing that I can do that you can't. You're incredible, Zoe. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for having me. 67:54 I really appreciate that. And please let me know if I can help with anything in the future. Or if you have any women that have come forward after watching this, please send them my information. I'd be more than happy to help. 68:09 I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.